Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj
Visitor: Forgive me for going back to what Maharaj said yesterday, because I forgot. I asked him about the presence of the guru and he said there is something saying "guru-guru-guru."
M: Oh yes, guru means that I AMness itself, which always reminds you "I am, I am I am" - that is guru-guru-guru, like the sound of a motor car starting. It is a continuous reminder that you are.
For this trifling talk, why are you using this equipment? (referring to the tape recorder)
V: Because this trifling talk takes us back all the time to that time to that which is not trifling.
M: Just so.
V: Can I ask a question?
M: Of course.
V: This morning Maharaj said this mystery of the knower and the known should be followed up. The known is not really known by a knower. The known is known because its perceptions, thoughts, feelings are movements in consciousness, and they are knowing because of their appearance in the light of consciousness. Is that correct?
M: It is just like that. A jnani is the most stupid ... (He is not concerned with knowing in the conventional sense). When this waking state, this consciousness, appears, then only everything appears. Prior to that, where is the question of knowledge, ignorance or jnana?
V: But deep sleep, is that really a state?
M: Yes, the integral combination of waking state, deep sleep and the dream state comprises I AM.
V: But in deep sleep, there is no time.
M: Time is there, only the witnessing of time is not there.
V: How can there be time if there is no witnessing?
M: Your watch did the witnessing job and told you that you were asleep for 8 hours.
V: So witnessing comes afterwards?
M: Agreed!
V: In the deep sleep itself, there is no time.
M: The one that tells you later, what is he like before telling you?
V: Formless.
M: When it is formless, when the form is not available, the consciousness I AM is not there either.
V: So in deep sleep, there is no I AM.
M: No. But the witnessing of deep sleep does happen. The principle that witnesses the deep sleep does not sleep.
V: I don't understand that something can be timeless and yet exist - the deep sleep.
M: You go into a very deep samadhi, then you will realize that. If you want to meet a state of nothingness, you yourself must also go into a state of nothingness.
V: That is what I call omnipresence or Presence.
M: "I am ness" is Presence. That "I am ness" presence should not be there. The non "I am ness" only can meet that nothingness.
V: Still there is - I have no word for it. Presence. There is no thought, no feeling. But there is ..
M: No thought, no feeling.
V: I used to go into samadhis which were just like deep sleep. In 3 hours or so, I noticed that many things had happened (in my immediate environment). But my guru was very unhappy with that. He said, you must not do that.
M: Samadhi and the experiencer of samadhi, did you get acquainted with both aspects - samadhi and the one who enjoyed samadhi?
V: Now, so many years later, I say there are identical.
M: OK, the experiencer and the experience are one and the same.
V: But it cannot be remembered.
M: It is not to be memorized; it cannot be grasped by memory. The manifest dynamic, fluid brahman cannot be caught in any words.
Visitor: Forgive me for going back to what Maharaj said yesterday, because I forgot. I asked him about the presence of the guru and he said there is something saying "guru-guru-guru."
M: Oh yes, guru means that I AMness itself, which always reminds you "I am, I am I am" - that is guru-guru-guru, like the sound of a motor car starting. It is a continuous reminder that you are.
For this trifling talk, why are you using this equipment? (referring to the tape recorder)
V: Because this trifling talk takes us back all the time to that time to that which is not trifling.
M: Just so.
V: Can I ask a question?
M: Of course.
V: This morning Maharaj said this mystery of the knower and the known should be followed up. The known is not really known by a knower. The known is known because its perceptions, thoughts, feelings are movements in consciousness, and they are knowing because of their appearance in the light of consciousness. Is that correct?
M: It is just like that. A jnani is the most stupid ... (He is not concerned with knowing in the conventional sense). When this waking state, this consciousness, appears, then only everything appears. Prior to that, where is the question of knowledge, ignorance or jnana?
V: But deep sleep, is that really a state?
M: Yes, the integral combination of waking state, deep sleep and the dream state comprises I AM.
V: But in deep sleep, there is no time.
M: Time is there, only the witnessing of time is not there.
V: How can there be time if there is no witnessing?
M: Your watch did the witnessing job and told you that you were asleep for 8 hours.
V: So witnessing comes afterwards?
M: Agreed!
V: In the deep sleep itself, there is no time.
M: The one that tells you later, what is he like before telling you?
V: Formless.
M: When it is formless, when the form is not available, the consciousness I AM is not there either.
V: So in deep sleep, there is no I AM.
M: No. But the witnessing of deep sleep does happen. The principle that witnesses the deep sleep does not sleep.
V: I don't understand that something can be timeless and yet exist - the deep sleep.
M: You go into a very deep samadhi, then you will realize that. If you want to meet a state of nothingness, you yourself must also go into a state of nothingness.
V: That is what I call omnipresence or Presence.
M: "I am ness" is Presence. That "I am ness" presence should not be there. The non "I am ness" only can meet that nothingness.
V: Still there is - I have no word for it. Presence. There is no thought, no feeling. But there is ..
M: No thought, no feeling.
V: I used to go into samadhis which were just like deep sleep. In 3 hours or so, I noticed that many things had happened (in my immediate environment). But my guru was very unhappy with that. He said, you must not do that.
M: Samadhi and the experiencer of samadhi, did you get acquainted with both aspects - samadhi and the one who enjoyed samadhi?
V: Now, so many years later, I say there are identical.
M: OK, the experiencer and the experience are one and the same.
V: But it cannot be remembered.
M: It is not to be memorized; it cannot be grasped by memory. The manifest dynamic, fluid brahman cannot be caught in any words.
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